Hi
I’m sure there will be few,if any,owners crying over the hotel being sold and we hugely welcome Mr Pattie and his company returning and revamping he hotel back to previous glory .
Can the committee advise if they strongly anticipate a deal being struck with Mr Patties company ,so owners can use the Hotels leisure facilities again, and those of us that refused to spend any money with the previous owners can now look forward to becoming customers of the bar and restaurant facilities once more ?
Many thanks
Michael
Partnership arrangement with new hotel owners ?
The February Newsletter sounds most optimistic about the current Committee liaising with the Hotel and ongoing discussions. Brilliant! The Hotel website says that there will be fine dining, a grill, bar food and afternoon teas, so something for everyone. Children and dog friendly too, which is good news. The future's looking bright.
Completely agree and a very warm welcome to Mr Pattie and Loch Rannoch Estate Ltd. I really do hope that the club and hotel work in partnership again going forward, to make this a welcoming resort, shared by both hotel guests and lodge owners. I am hugely encouraged by the new owners of the hotel and how much they are doing. Really looking forward to when the 'new' hotel is open!
It was said many years ago that the Hotel needed the club as much as the club needed the hotel, but unfortunately this has not been heeded until now.
Over the past few years it was obvious something had to change and it has. We have a new hotel owner who respects not just the club, but the village, its residents and the owners.
The future looks brighter than it was 6 months ago and with a proper strategy and people who care at the helm, I for one am positive
Over the past few years it was obvious something had to change and it has. We have a new hotel owner who respects not just the club, but the village, its residents and the owners.
The future looks brighter than it was 6 months ago and with a proper strategy and people who care at the helm, I for one am positive
Totally agree with all the sentiments particularly after the debacle of the previous Chairpersons and last year's Committee. We have a much more able and professional group of Owners running the Club now and with the addition of an enthusiastic and welcoming owner running the Hotel, the future is looking very promising indeed.
Ronnie
I have just rediscovered the forum.
I echo the worry expressed about the deterioration of the relationship between the Club and the Hotel. We need each other and in my view continuing in the present way raises the same sort of problems as those in a bitter family divorce.
I wonder was there any consultation with the hotel before the Club went into the short term rental business, in direct competition? Although this has turned out to be financially advantageous to the Club on the short term, it must have inevitably provoked hostility by the hotel and reinforced their intention to build the new apartments.
One positive possible outcome of the planning proposal of the Hotel, if rejected, could be to stimulate both parties to get together and develop a long-term vision for the Estate, in consultation with the village. Indeed a mediator might help,.
Cooperation with the Hotel would be a win win situation for both parties. I could envisage a joint booking site, meal-deals for members and a possible meal delivery service by the Hotel. Also the presence of the Lodges can help to alleviate the seasonal dependence for both the Hotel and the Club. On the longer term, joint development of recreation facilities with the village as a whole and a realistic evaluation of the financial outlook could also be of benefit. I am worried that the timeshare model will not be able to cope with the situation in a few years time, when us founder members are all dead and our shares have reverted to the Club.
I write this on behalf of my wife daughters and grand children. We have been visiting KR anually for more than 45 years and are emotionally extremely attached to the place.
I echo the worry expressed about the deterioration of the relationship between the Club and the Hotel. We need each other and in my view continuing in the present way raises the same sort of problems as those in a bitter family divorce.
I wonder was there any consultation with the hotel before the Club went into the short term rental business, in direct competition? Although this has turned out to be financially advantageous to the Club on the short term, it must have inevitably provoked hostility by the hotel and reinforced their intention to build the new apartments.
One positive possible outcome of the planning proposal of the Hotel, if rejected, could be to stimulate both parties to get together and develop a long-term vision for the Estate, in consultation with the village. Indeed a mediator might help,.
Cooperation with the Hotel would be a win win situation for both parties. I could envisage a joint booking site, meal-deals for members and a possible meal delivery service by the Hotel. Also the presence of the Lodges can help to alleviate the seasonal dependence for both the Hotel and the Club. On the longer term, joint development of recreation facilities with the village as a whole and a realistic evaluation of the financial outlook could also be of benefit. I am worried that the timeshare model will not be able to cope with the situation in a few years time, when us founder members are all dead and our shares have reverted to the Club.
I write this on behalf of my wife daughters and grand children. We have been visiting KR anually for more than 45 years and are emotionally extremely attached to the place.
Last edited by MILE002 on Sun Aug 06, 2023 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I’m not sure whether it’s my fault, but something seems to have gone wrong with my posting of a reply to this topic early yesterday morning. I have only just rediscovered the Forum. Here’s trying again.
I wanted to echo LAM0003’s plea about the necessity of repairing relations with the Hotel. When relations deteriorate substantially, as they did in the Barratt era, it is comparable with a bitter family divorce where everybody suffers, we the children, but also both of the warring parties. We are not just two unrelated businesses. We are in many ways dependent on each other and it is important that we work together to ensure that both of us prosper.
Was there any consultation with the Hotel before we went into the short-term rental business? If not, it might have been wise to do so. It has for the first time put the Club in direct competition with the Hotel and I wonder if this could have unintentionally helped provoke the Hotel into making their present development proposal?
The Club and the Hotel both need each other and it is in the interest of the Club that the Hotel prospers. Not only are we dependent on their swimming pool, but a prosperous looking hotel increases the appeal of the lodges. I don’t like to think of the impact that a dilapidated or closed Hotel would have on the Club. Likewise, business from Club members and renters is an important source of income for the Hotel and helps to alleviate the inevitable seasonal effect somewhat. In the long term, it is not clear whether the old timeshare model alone will result in sufficient replenishment of the club membership in a few years, after we founder members have all died off, so it may be necessary to consider other possibilities.
In my view, exploring possible areas of closer collaboration could be a win-win situation.
For example, joint actions between the Club and the Hotel in promoting the Estate and in things such as a joint booking site would be more effective than going our separate ways and could result in savings. By supporting and promoting discounted Hotel meal deals and meal delivery schemes for Lodge dwellers, the Club could help the Hotel.
But more is needed. The proposed Hotel planning proposal could even have a positive effect, particularly if rejected, by stimulating the Club and the Hotel to together develop a joint long-term plan for the development of the Estate and its recreation facilities, preferably together with the village. Indeed, as LAM003 mentioned, maybe a mediator will be needed at the outset. However, allowing our relations to deteriorate to those in the Barratt era would surely be disastrous.
I write this as someone who is emotionally very attached to the Estate and the region. As a lodge-owner of 5 weeks, who has spent more than 2.5 years of my life with my wife at the Estate during the past 45 years, I look forward immensely to coming back annually for our holidays to beautiful Kinloch Rannoch, as do our daughters and grandchildren.
I wanted to echo LAM0003’s plea about the necessity of repairing relations with the Hotel. When relations deteriorate substantially, as they did in the Barratt era, it is comparable with a bitter family divorce where everybody suffers, we the children, but also both of the warring parties. We are not just two unrelated businesses. We are in many ways dependent on each other and it is important that we work together to ensure that both of us prosper.
Was there any consultation with the Hotel before we went into the short-term rental business? If not, it might have been wise to do so. It has for the first time put the Club in direct competition with the Hotel and I wonder if this could have unintentionally helped provoke the Hotel into making their present development proposal?
The Club and the Hotel both need each other and it is in the interest of the Club that the Hotel prospers. Not only are we dependent on their swimming pool, but a prosperous looking hotel increases the appeal of the lodges. I don’t like to think of the impact that a dilapidated or closed Hotel would have on the Club. Likewise, business from Club members and renters is an important source of income for the Hotel and helps to alleviate the inevitable seasonal effect somewhat. In the long term, it is not clear whether the old timeshare model alone will result in sufficient replenishment of the club membership in a few years, after we founder members have all died off, so it may be necessary to consider other possibilities.
In my view, exploring possible areas of closer collaboration could be a win-win situation.
For example, joint actions between the Club and the Hotel in promoting the Estate and in things such as a joint booking site would be more effective than going our separate ways and could result in savings. By supporting and promoting discounted Hotel meal deals and meal delivery schemes for Lodge dwellers, the Club could help the Hotel.
But more is needed. The proposed Hotel planning proposal could even have a positive effect, particularly if rejected, by stimulating the Club and the Hotel to together develop a joint long-term plan for the development of the Estate and its recreation facilities, preferably together with the village. Indeed, as LAM003 mentioned, maybe a mediator will be needed at the outset. However, allowing our relations to deteriorate to those in the Barratt era would surely be disastrous.
I write this as someone who is emotionally very attached to the Estate and the region. As a lodge-owner of 5 weeks, who has spent more than 2.5 years of my life with my wife at the Estate during the past 45 years, I look forward immensely to coming back annually for our holidays to beautiful Kinloch Rannoch, as do our daughters and grandchildren.
This is an interesting post because it starts about three years ago when it became known that Nick Pattie was buying the hotel. Hope was expressed that your Committee would negotiate with him for a Leisure Contract and ensure we were welcome in the bar and restaurant. As we all now know all that was successfully achieved some time ago.
Moving on to Part 2 of the story. The hotel owners have decided to construct new apartments. Let me make it clear that Mr Pattie wrote to me in advance of seeking Planning permission to advise me of that. I appreciated his courtesy in this respect. It was obviously going to be a contentious issue for Club Members which is why we immediately decided to conduct a survey of Members. The vast majority of those voting were in favour of us Objecting. But there were also many suggestions made to us. It will of course be in the hands of the local council, not the LRHC, who make the decision.
We intend to carry on with our ongoing dialogue with Mr Pattie whatever decision is made.
Regards to all, John
Moving on to Part 2 of the story. The hotel owners have decided to construct new apartments. Let me make it clear that Mr Pattie wrote to me in advance of seeking Planning permission to advise me of that. I appreciated his courtesy in this respect. It was obviously going to be a contentious issue for Club Members which is why we immediately decided to conduct a survey of Members. The vast majority of those voting were in favour of us Objecting. But there were also many suggestions made to us. It will of course be in the hands of the local council, not the LRHC, who make the decision.
We intend to carry on with our ongoing dialogue with Mr Pattie whatever decision is made.
Regards to all, John
At the AGM of 2021 if I remember correctly I seconded a Motion to sell our Staff House and accommodate staff in the Apartment block. That went down like a lead weight, as a couple of owners had an emotional attachment to their week ownership of an Apartment. Therefore that is a hurdle you would have to work around, having said that the Apartments would seem ideal to sell outright to Nick Pattie if he were interested, they are much closer to the Hotel and wouldn't necessitate the output of money from Nick on building a new Sports facility or the new Lochside Accom. It would also lift some of the Financial concerns about our Refurbishment programme.
Ronnie
Ronnie
Hi Ronnie,
I remember the intervention well.
The question of has Nick Pattie made an offer is a good one and deserving of a reply from those who may know.
If he has, without a doubt it should be seriously considered for a variety of reasons some of which you have suggested.
I remember the intervention well.
The question of has Nick Pattie made an offer is a good one and deserving of a reply from those who may know.
If he has, without a doubt it should be seriously considered for a variety of reasons some of which you have suggested.
Hi Stuart
I am not sure that Richard looks in on the Forum very often, but I could be wrong.
I just think as a Club/Owners we are resting on our laurels imagining that since LRHC has been in calmer waters for some time now with easier access to Hotel; Restaurant and Leisure Facilities on tap, as owners we have nothing to worry about, but on the contrary with each passing year LRHC gets closer to the thin edge of the Financial Wedge as the original owners pass away and more weeks are returned to the club. Sooner rather than later we shall tip over into the Club being in a Financial deficit and possibly even having to close with loss of jobs.
Renting is not a solution, it's just not cost effective in the long run to have fast turnarounds of short lets, and it's taking it's toll on Staff and also of the Fabric of each Unit as Renters are not as careful as Owners insitu.
We need to have a cohesive Sales Strategy and Sales Team, as up to now we have had neither.
We also need to free up Equity which is where the sale of the Apartments comes in, the money being used for the Refurbishment Programme to speed up and make the Units more attractive to Buyers and also 7/14 day Lets for families.
Ronnie
I am not sure that Richard looks in on the Forum very often, but I could be wrong.
I just think as a Club/Owners we are resting on our laurels imagining that since LRHC has been in calmer waters for some time now with easier access to Hotel; Restaurant and Leisure Facilities on tap, as owners we have nothing to worry about, but on the contrary with each passing year LRHC gets closer to the thin edge of the Financial Wedge as the original owners pass away and more weeks are returned to the club. Sooner rather than later we shall tip over into the Club being in a Financial deficit and possibly even having to close with loss of jobs.
Renting is not a solution, it's just not cost effective in the long run to have fast turnarounds of short lets, and it's taking it's toll on Staff and also of the Fabric of each Unit as Renters are not as careful as Owners insitu.
We need to have a cohesive Sales Strategy and Sales Team, as up to now we have had neither.
We also need to free up Equity which is where the sale of the Apartments comes in, the money being used for the Refurbishment Programme to speed up and make the Units more attractive to Buyers and also 7/14 day Lets for families.
Ronnie
I would most certainly be interested in Seconding such a Motion, but first it would be helpful if John Hurst; Committee and Richard at their meeting with Nick Pattie, end of September, were able to 'Test the water' and find out if indeed Nick would be interested in purchasing the Apartment Block, perhaps even knocking it down and rebuilding on its footprint.
Solve both Nick's problems and the Club's Finances.
Solve both Nick's problems and the Club's Finances.
I note the suggestion to dispose of the apartment block. I am certainly sympathetic to the idea.
I understand that a significant amount of rental income is generated for the club from this block.
We need a fairly simple analysis of the amount of net rental income generated, the expenses of the block, the amount of management fees currently obtained etc.
The idea of selling the block would also be conditional upon the current owners being either prepared to swap or relinquish their weeks - by no means a certainty either way.
Rodger
I understand that a significant amount of rental income is generated for the club from this block.
We need a fairly simple analysis of the amount of net rental income generated, the expenses of the block, the amount of management fees currently obtained etc.
The idea of selling the block would also be conditional upon the current owners being either prepared to swap or relinquish their weeks - by no means a certainty either way.
Rodger
Hi Roger,
Totally agree with you re pursuing all avenues and simple accounting methods to provide an analysis of the true net figure.
I don't think the club can afford not to.
When we look at the information we have already at our disposal such as the number of lodges for sale and now on club books, over 50% of revenue now spent on wages when the norm is in region of 35-40%, the cost of booking.com etc it would appear that the net profit is pretty low.
We have already been told that owner rentals are now outstripping club rentals and we only need to look at the dissatisfaction from renters on booking.com and owners alike to tell the story.
We also have to look at the charges now to have your Lodge advertised for sale and additional charges budgeted to know that the income stream would be a lot less than the previous years
We were once told not that long ago the rental of club lodges could bring in £500,000 pa- Has it?
Only the person or persons who said this can tell us.
It was a projected dream figure, but now we have reality kicking in.
I reckon the net profit on rental income of club owned lodges is around £50,000 ish pa if that.
We now have at least another 6 staff compared to last year and have had to hire contract cleaners in the past 12 months excluding other expenses which hopefully will show in accounts.
If you study the accounts and budgets forensically there are certain amounts that do not add up.
How will they show the cost of the visit to Glasgow for an event we should never been part of which has now been acknowledged?
What do owners of those units think?
Totally agree with you re pursuing all avenues and simple accounting methods to provide an analysis of the true net figure.
I don't think the club can afford not to.
When we look at the information we have already at our disposal such as the number of lodges for sale and now on club books, over 50% of revenue now spent on wages when the norm is in region of 35-40%, the cost of booking.com etc it would appear that the net profit is pretty low.
We have already been told that owner rentals are now outstripping club rentals and we only need to look at the dissatisfaction from renters on booking.com and owners alike to tell the story.
We also have to look at the charges now to have your Lodge advertised for sale and additional charges budgeted to know that the income stream would be a lot less than the previous years
We were once told not that long ago the rental of club lodges could bring in £500,000 pa- Has it?
Only the person or persons who said this can tell us.
It was a projected dream figure, but now we have reality kicking in.
I reckon the net profit on rental income of club owned lodges is around £50,000 ish pa if that.
We now have at least another 6 staff compared to last year and have had to hire contract cleaners in the past 12 months excluding other expenses which hopefully will show in accounts.
If you study the accounts and budgets forensically there are certain amounts that do not add up.
How will they show the cost of the visit to Glasgow for an event we should never been part of which has now been acknowledged?
What do owners of those units think?
Are owners of the studio and apartment units happy to explore the option of selling those units to the hotel if they are able to be accommodated in other lodges owned by club thus realising funds which will fund refurbishments and secure our club's future for years to come?
Given there has apparently been complaints from people Renting these Apartments that the only good thing about them is the view! I doubt that continuing to Rent them out is a viable option, as the negative reviews will impact both Renting out and any possible Sales. The whole Apartment Block looks past its sell by date, over and above the much needed internal refurbishment, so is it even feasible for the Club to come up with the sort of money required for such a huge project?
The Committee has to be open with owners and say if the Club is getting perilously close to tipping into the negative zone with more money going out than is coming in, as it's not only our Holidays on the line, it's people's jobs; salaries; mortgages!
Most owners don't use this Forum, perhaps not even knowing it exists as it's well hidden in the 'New website' and its not prominently advertised in the News Letter. The word could be spread about our dire financial situation if that were the case, and perhaps Apartment owners would be meanable to change into a larger unit
as the choice may boil down to reducing the number of weeks/units held or closing down the club.
Ronnie
The Committee has to be open with owners and say if the Club is getting perilously close to tipping into the negative zone with more money going out than is coming in, as it's not only our Holidays on the line, it's people's jobs; salaries; mortgages!
Most owners don't use this Forum, perhaps not even knowing it exists as it's well hidden in the 'New website' and its not prominently advertised in the News Letter. The word could be spread about our dire financial situation if that were the case, and perhaps Apartment owners would be meanable to change into a larger unit
as the choice may boil down to reducing the number of weeks/units held or closing down the club.
Ronnie
Hi Ronnie,
I don't have a clue as to how many owners of either studios or apartments log onto this forum, but the lack of any responses is a concern.
Is it that they are quite happy for them to be sold or there are now very few owners of those units is open to debate?
Reality has to click in at some point especially as you rightly state, the view appears to be the saving grace when you read the comments on various feedback.
Those units are no longer fit for purpose despite the obstructions put in place by a few.
I don't have a clue as to how many owners of either studios or apartments log onto this forum, but the lack of any responses is a concern.
Is it that they are quite happy for them to be sold or there are now very few owners of those units is open to debate?
Reality has to click in at some point especially as you rightly state, the view appears to be the saving grace when you read the comments on various feedback.
Those units are no longer fit for purpose despite the obstructions put in place by a few.
I've just read the Posts on here, after leaving our comments on 'The Marina Development' subject area! I won't repeat them on here, but hope that Richard, John and the Committee give our suggestions serious consideration please.
We believe that we quickly need an online survey just for Owners of Apartments and Studios, plus another for all Owners, so that John & Committee have some solid information to inform their meeting with Nick at the end of September and assess his interest in such a proposal. I hope that much as some Owners love their Studios and Apartments, they would not stand in the way of potentially stopping the proposed Marina development, if they were offered another Lodge? Maybe some would be pleased to have the opportunity of a larger Lodge or move to a different time of the year? Of course it would also reduce LRHC stock, increase income and the Sale of the Studio and Apartment block would significantly improve the Club's financial situation too. As we said in our other Post: over to you John, Committee and Richard...
P.S. How many Lodges have been sold since Graham took up his Post?
We believe that we quickly need an online survey just for Owners of Apartments and Studios, plus another for all Owners, so that John & Committee have some solid information to inform their meeting with Nick at the end of September and assess his interest in such a proposal. I hope that much as some Owners love their Studios and Apartments, they would not stand in the way of potentially stopping the proposed Marina development, if they were offered another Lodge? Maybe some would be pleased to have the opportunity of a larger Lodge or move to a different time of the year? Of course it would also reduce LRHC stock, increase income and the Sale of the Studio and Apartment block would significantly improve the Club's financial situation too. As we said in our other Post: over to you John, Committee and Richard...
P.S. How many Lodges have been sold since Graham took up his Post?
Having a lazy Sunday and decided to do a bit of counting.
There are 512 studio and apartment units for sale on the club website.
And this is the ones we know about.
It would be interesting to know how many lodges have been sold since sales position filled, however that may be putting a man in the job for around a month under too much pressure.
The bigger question is how many lodges have been sold in the last 2 years?
There are 512 studio and apartment units for sale on the club website.
And this is the ones we know about.
It would be interesting to know how many lodges have been sold since sales position filled, however that may be putting a man in the job for around a month under too much pressure.
The bigger question is how many lodges have been sold in the last 2 years?